Mandala of Eleven-Headed Avalokiteshvara; Tibet; 19th century; pigments on cloth; Rubin Museum of Himalayan Art; gift of the Shelley & Donald Rubin Foundation; F1997.19.6 (HAR 596)

Applying the teachings of interdependence to day-to-day lifeApplying the teachings of interdependence to day-to-day life

Sarah Zabrodski: How would you define interdependence in a Buddhist context?

Venerable Thubten Chodron: Interdependence is the meaning of what we call dependent arising in Buddhism. The basic idea is that things depend on other things. Not only do results depend on their causes, but something becomes a result in dependence on there being a cause. Causal dependence is the seed growing into a plant. Mutual dependence is that the plant is called a result in dependence on there being a cause that produced it. Dependent arising is a strong theme throughout Buddhist teachings.   

Could you tell us a bit about how dependent arising, which has the same meaning as interdependence, applies to both conventional life and the ultimate nature of things?  

Conventional existence includes the people, objects, and environment that we encounter in our lives. The ultimate nature is how phenomena actually exist. How do they exist? They lack any kind of independent nature, a nature that is self-instituting. For example, when we think “I,” the self appears to exist independent of causes and conditions. It seems to be something independent of the body and mind on which it depends. Think about it—do you feel like you exist simply because the causes for you exist? No, it feels like there is an “I” that exists independently. Yet the more we understand dependence, the more we understand that everything, including “I,” is empty of independent or inherent existence.  

Every object has a conventional nature and an ultimate nature. The apple’s conventional nature is it grows on a tree, decays or is eaten, becomes part of a body or the earth, etc. Its ultimate nature is that it is impermanent and lacks inherent existence. The apple being dependent and the apple being empty of independent existence are complementary.  

That is a difficult point to understand, because when people understand things lack inherent existence, if they don’t understand dependent arising, they easily go to the extreme of saying nothing exists at all. But when they see that things do exist, then the mind goes to the other extreme and grasps things as inherently existent. We bounce back and forth between absolutism (inherent existence) and nihilism. However, astute meditators with deep realization know that dependent arising and the emptiness of inherent existence are mutually complementary. Things arise dependently because they are empty. Things are empty because they arise dependently. These two go together.  

How do we see interdependence reflected in Buddhist art? 

Let’s take the mandala of Avalokiteshvara, the buddha of compassion. The mandala represents the environment and Avalokiteshvara is the deity who inhabits it. In Buddhism, that is called the support and the supported. The environment is the support. What does it support? Avalokiteshvara, who is the supported. 

What is the relationship between interdependence and compassion and how we relate to other living beings?  

The Buddha taught steps to follow to generate compassion. That is causal dependence. Tibetan Buddhism describes two methods to generate bodhicitta, the aspiration to become a buddha in order to benefit all sentient beings. One is the seven-point cause-and-effect instruction, and the second is equalizing and exchanging self and others. When we do these meditations, our attitude toward other beings changes. Two points are especially important: we see other living beings as kind, and we see them as subjected to suffering in cyclic existence. Contemplating this awakens us to the fact that our entire lives depend on the kindness of others, and we want to benefit them.  

Can we see this interdependence—and by extension compassion—even in the seemingly mundane? 

I’m talking to you by seeing you on a computer screen. How many living beings were involved in the creation of this computer? There are so many parts that came from different countries. Some parts came from under the earth. The computer depends on the miners who extracted these minerals, the people who designed the computer, the people who assembled, packaged, and transported it, and many others. The opportunity to talk to each other on opposite sides of the country is dependent on their kindness.  

What about the fact that their kindness wasn’t specifically directed toward us, or it may not have involved a feeling of kindness in them at all?  

It doesn’t matter whether somebody does it especially for me and you. The bottom line is they put their life energy into it and we benefit.  

How does interdependence relate to karma?  

Karma means action. The law of karma and its effects is an ethical system of cause and effect. Our physical, verbal, and mental actions affect our future experiences. The most important part of any action is the motivation. To put it simply, actions done with kindness bring happiness; actions done with nonvirtuous intentions bring suffering. When we understand karma, we stop blaming our problems and unhappiness on others and instead take responsibility for our actions, knowing that they are the principal cause of our misery. This knowledge gives us the power to change our future by changing our present actions.  

What lessons can we apply to how we treat our environment?  

Every living being depends on their environment. If we have compassion for living beings, we must care for the environment that we all depend on. Climate change and pollution in the environment are related to wealth inequality, which causes people to fall ill and creates social unrest. So caring for the environment is important. Happiness and peace depend not only on the environment but also on social structures, politics, and so forth.   

How can we put interdependence into action?  

The Dalai Lama says if you want to be selfish, be wisely selfish and take care of others. If we take care of others and help others, we’ll live with happy people and we’ll be happier. If we’re stingy and arrogant, others will be miserable, and we’ll live with unhappy people. Unhappy people don’t stay quiet. Those who are impoverished will steal. Whose possessions will they take? Those of the wealthy, who live surrounded by impoverished, unhappy, angry people. In short, we’re all in this together. We are interdependent. The more we can understand this, the more we will happily work for the welfare of all and live in a happier society. 

Sarah Zabrodski is the senior editor and publications mananger at the Rubin Museum.

Headshot of Venerable Thubten Chodron

Venerable Thubten Chodron is an American Buddhist nun and the founder and abbess of Sravasti Abbey. Ordained in 1977, she is a student of His Holiness the Dalai Lama and other Tibetan masters. She has authored many books on Buddhism and assisted His Holiness the Dalai Lama with the writing and publication of The Library of Wisdom and Compassion. Visit thubtenchodron.org for a library of her teachings and sravastiabbey.org to learn about the Abbey.

Published February 24, 2025
BuddhismBuddhist PerspectivesInterviewsMagazine

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